The launch of the DRM-free music store from Apple has been overshadowed by news that tracks purchased from the store contain information of who bought the songs embedded into the files. Some fear that should these tracks make their way onto file sharing sites that the original owners could easily be identified.
The tracks from record company EMI cost more and are of a better quality than standard iTunes songs. Apple has yet to comment on what it plans to do with the information embedded in the music files. Many news sites are already speculating that it will be a matter of time before software becomes available that will strip personal data from the downloaded files.
News source: BBC
The tracks from record company EMI cost more and are of a better quality than standard iTunes songs. Apple has yet to comment on what it plans to do with the information embedded in the music files. Many news sites are already speculating that it will be a matter of time before software becomes available that will strip personal data from the downloaded files.
News source: BBC
No kidding, lol
I really don't see what the problem is, The lack of DRM is designed to make it easier for you to use on all your devices with no problems. Not so that you can go and throw it up on file sharing networks.
Of course, I don't think it will take long for some coder somewhere to write a stripper for the files, removing all the personal data. (ah, just read that the BBC think the same heh)
The only reason somebody would be upset about this, is if somebody wanted to share these files on P2P or such.
The only reason somebody would be upset about this, is if somebody wanted to share these files on P2P or such.
There is more than that.. I personally wouldn't want to have my information identifiable within those files other than perhaps some customer ID that only makes sense to Apple. Using my name/email is a little unnecessary.
The only reason somebody would be upset about this, is if somebody wanted to share these files on P2P or such.
Well considering how many ipods get stolen every day..... do you think those people want a load of tracks on the player to give away personal details as an extra worry?
If the person who stole the ipod also gave the songs to everyone they know and THEN they find their way around the internet... you also have the worry that you are going to get into some kind of legal trouble.
Besides, the kind of people who actually buy music from itunes aren't the kind of people who upload the tracks to p2p sites. A few might do it at first "because they can". But that novelty will quickly wear off. The stuff available on itunes is probably already on p2p sites anyway.
In addition, Albums leak from sample CD's sent out by the labels.... nothing will be gained, be newer or be better by an uploaded 'itunes plus' track. That's why they are even releasing them in the first place. If they thought these are going to flood p2p they wouldn't release them.
I suspect they leave the information in the file because they always have and didn't think twice about it. They probably regard the file as their property still..... and the personal information is effective the licence to the content.
The only reason somebody would be upset about this, is if somebody wanted to share these files on P2P or such.
There is more than that.. I personally wouldn't want to have my information identifiable within those files other than perhaps some customer ID that only makes sense to Apple. Using my name/email is a little unnecessary.
+1
The only reason somebody would be upset about this, is if somebody wanted to share these files on P2P or such.
Well considering how many ipods get stolen every day..... do you think those people want a load of tracks on the player to give away personal details as an extra worry?
If the person who stole the ipod also gave the songs to everyone they know and THEN they find their way around the internet... you also have the worry that you are going to get into some kind of legal trouble.
...
And nobody complained about the metadata in the old files, they are only complaining about it in the new files, because they want to share them but can get caught now.
But go ahead and argue that the only people that get caught will be the criminals. It's not like that arguments flawed or anything.
The only reason somebody would be upset about this, is if somebody wanted to share these files on P2P or such.
Well considering how many ipods get stolen every day..... do you think those people want a load of tracks on the player to give away personal details as an extra worry?
If the person who stole the ipod also gave the songs to everyone they know and THEN they find their way around the internet... you also have the worry that you are going to get into some kind of legal trouble.
...
And nobody complained about the metadata in the old files, they are only complaining about it in the new files, because they want to share them but can get caught now.
this is not entirely true.
First off, I don't have an iPod and will never purchase from iTunes, so I don't really care. Its just that I would have a problem, if I did buy from them, if my name and email were embedded in the files. Say, someone does steal my iPod, now they have my name/email. I like to keep those things private, as do many other people.
I really doubt anyone is upset about it due to the fact it can easily be removed. But we shouldn't have to bother in the first place. A simple customer ID would suffice.
I was just going to post this!
It has ALWAYS been standard practice for iTunes to include account information on EVERY file downloaded. You *do* have to sign into *your* account to download the file.
iTunes now offers *better* files to download, and yet people bitch about the NORMAL way the files are?
Neowin - Where sensationalist journalism looks better
Printers encode serial numbers on every page printed...
everything has serial numbers anymore that can tie you to something...
this is no different then evreything else... you comit a crime with one of them, they can trace you, you comit a crime with this they can trace you...
It's more a matter of privacy then anything. I have no qualms with Apple wanting to prevent these files from being re-distributed, but no file is ever safe of other people accessing it. It's possible hackers with trojans would be able to access that information from the files on your computer, or in more serious situation, if someone has these songs on their iPod for example, and they get mugged and have it stolen, now not only does the criminal have your iPod, they potentially have the ability to get your name, address and so fourth. This could prevent people from reporting thefts to the police in fear of retribution from the mugger or anybody he may be associated with.
Just use a code in the file that only Apple has the ability to use, if they need to track where the files came from.
Now if somebody steals your computer, whether or not they have access to your music should be the least of your worries.
Paranoid BS. The files have your name and e-mail address, that's all. Not your physical address or any other information.
As for your mugger retribution theory, how is it any different than before? If you have ever bought a song from iTunes, that information is there. This is nothing new at all, and it is not and has never been hidden. The only reason that people are bitching about it now is because they planned on sharing the songs that they downloaded. End of story. If you claim otherwise, you are a liar, plain and simple.
Last edited by roadwarrior on 01 Jun 2007 - 11:32
So to me there really no point in using itunes cause at a dollar a song thats rather expensive if you plan on getting alot of songs.... but i guess at the same time theres a price (premium) to pay for getting individual songs instead of full cd's.
bottom line (for me) = ill never use itunes or any other mp3 related services myself. atleast not until they get the prices at much better rates.... cause the MOST i would "consider" paying for a mp3 album is HALF the price of the original cd AT THE MOST.... plus it's gotta be 192bit rate minimum to.
This is how they did catch the creator of the melesia virus... and the utility came out right after how they caught become public.
convert it to something like mp3, just like... gets rid of the info i assume xD
Glassed Silver:mac
I bet you won't be able to tell the difference.
I bet you won't be able to tell the difference.
I bet you won't be able to tell the difference.
FLAC is a wonderful format. So is OGG.
Also, you would need to have some fantastic speakers to actually tell the difference. Most people don't. And not only that, but you would have to have some fantastic hearing also. Which is also rare. At the most, the difference you are hearing isn't quality per se, but rather a difference in encoding that can affect certain wavelengths and such. Bass may be more prominent or it has a warmer sound. Kind of like those people that argue for digital versus analog components, where it is a matter of preference in the sound rather than quality.
Last edited by WICKO on 01 Jun 2007 - 20:54
What about the actual music you listen to.
I like death metal, I could listen to it through any speakers/headphones and it sounds fine!
Apple? no... the RIAA? yes!
they have servers that just sit there all day watching this stuff, downloading files for "cases"...
Apple have never been a problem, even their apps (most of them) and os dont use serials.
Its either a legacy itunes thing, such as matching, downloading from an ipod purchased tracks back to a computer. Like it does not when I put my ipod into my works computer and i downloads my purchased music from the ipod at home. Both itunes are registered to me.
I would believe thats how its knows. Tags in the mp3's.
Apple wouldnt bother chasing people using P2P.
The RIAA would though. Suing someone for sharing their purchased DRM free music, like they do know.
Maybe thats a good thing though, no DRM but a chance people can find out who actually distributed the original file.
That might put people off sharing.
note that you can still share songs illegally (or legally, for that matter), made possible through the removal of DRM. It's just that your name is tied to it. this is a measure aimed at squashing people who put songs up on P2P, rather than preventing "your kids" from downloading and listening to "your music" because "you're broke."
It still is DRM free, you just can't share it over file-sharing networks.
I'm sure you can send it to your kids other than through a publicly accessible space/
the fundamental weakness however is that these files can simply be re-encoded as something different, thereby removing anything which may be hidden within the file.
i don't know why they bothered doing it embedding anything in there it's a pointless.
$RIAA = $NAZIS;
}
The music on P2P is already available for free and of high quality, it doesn't make any sense why someone would complain about this unless they planned on buying the music and setting it up to download on P2P.
Other than that there is nothing to complain about, if you want to be an idiot and upload it to P2P, it's cheaper to buy the CD and then convert it to High Quality yourself and then offer it to P2P, No personal information is included. Doesn't take much of a scholar to figure that out, Damn. Hell even convert it to FLAC if you're so excited about it...
Just my 2 cents.
Oh and another thing, you're not tied to just one company (i.e. EMI)
Define "some." I am getting tired of these vague words used to create controversy where it does not exist. "Some" could be a crack head homeless guy in NY or Bill Gates. How about give me a polling sample?
jnz start
mov riaa, [nazi]
jmp start
If Apple removes THIS, then they'll complain that music isn't sold with a personalised thank-you note from the band.
I think this is a great idea, I have no idea why people would be kicking up about it, only n00bs that use P2P are going to have problems
Cheers,
Mikee
Mikee
I feel that record labels have had it too easy for a long time but this is pretty darn fair IMHO and an incentive to keep you from distributing the music.
And yes, people moaning are simply music thiefs, get over it!
The Hypocrisy of Music Thieves Unveiled
People who want something for nothing are quickly running out of excuses, aren't they...
And for those who talk about stolen iPods/computers...well there is this thing called a police report that will protect you from being harassed by the RIAA if somehow your purchased songs ever ended up on P2P.
Moral of the story. DO NOT BUY MUSIC. Use torrents.
Moral of the story. DO NOT BUY MUSIC. Use torrents.
I agree pretty much. Besides, on top of everything, I wouldn't want "all" my "digital ID" stamped with "all" the other digital information that is being collected about me, and put them onto my MP3's, WMA's, (whatever format for that matter), and share it with the planet, because of some pay-per-go service or whatever.
Last edited by D-M on 01 Jun 2007 - 22:41
I have personally never downloaded from torrents and probably never would because of the Pirate Bay ordeal (and way before that), but besides the point, there are plenty of other means.
Great plan!
Great plan!
One of these days you might take the blindfold off.
People shouldn't get up in arms about this. I agree that it could pose a problem if your computer was hacked, but would you rather have DRM-laden files instead?
Example somewhere near the begining of the file: 1702415[hex:00]<one-way hash of username>[hex:00][Music Data]
When the ID # is looked up and the username is passed through the hash generator and the hashes match, its known that the user id wasnt just changed to a random number by someone and that the original sharer is the person tied with the username.
Example somewhere near the begining of the file: 1702415[hex:00]<one-way hash of username>[hex:00][Music Data]
When the ID # is looked up and the username is passed through the hash generator and the hashes match, its known that the user id wasnt just changed to a random number by someone and that the original sharer is the person tied with the username.
Sounds good, but the counter-measure still wouldn't add up.
Its a nice step to having portable music without restricting the user...
Define the word dumb in your eyes.. Do you have the right to dictate someone being "dumb", or oppose to someone being "undereducated" in one particular subject (Depending on the subject of course).
Last edited by D-M on 01 Jun 2007 - 22:41
If they implemented a sytem like I described and they didn't even take the precaution, they'd be dumb imo.
You all need to grow up. This is just fine with me. I buy a car and I have a license plate and everybody can get information that it's my car. My phone record is public as marketeers are calling everyday. So how is this any worse? It's not. You people are just inventing reasons to illegally download and share music. Do you give out other stuff you buy to your friends? Maybe some, but I do believe that my friends need to buy stuff for themselves anyways.
Second I will buy music or videos, put it on all my devices and that's it. I don't have a problem having my name nad contact information on the files. Just as long as it's not my social security number or credit card number, I'm fine with it.
Some people just don't know what they want anymore.
Freedom of privacy? And not only because I show everyone that I paid for it. That excuse is getting old.
Freedom of privacy? And not only because I show everyone that I paid for it. That excuse is getting old.
You realize that the music you are buying is a product right? Everything you buy has a track to you, there's no difference with music, only they need to put some kind of sharing prevention. If you don't want your name out, don't give it away, the same you do with bills and your social security number for example. Just don't give it to others.
It is very obvious, this is is a non issue made to be issue by people who want to get songs for free and have the ability to give them away and do whatever they want with it. Well with music and movies this doesn't work and you should be tracked if you post the new MP3 on torrent or you give it away to 15 other people. Again, this is awesome actually. I can use the media everywhere on my devices and I get to buy it legally. I'm not gonna share so having my name appear on the songs is a non-issue for me. It's like a receipt.
As far as I know, I can gather the information on who's the car that is parked across the street. Fine, I can see the plate but that doesn't give me his name and email.
Since I'll probably never buy from itunes (the last time I did was like a year ago), I don't give a damn. But I understand those who are concerned about it. Frankly, there's no need for music files to have your name and email embedded on them.
I can publish my phone number all over the place, and I don't think people is gonna come up with my email and password.
Why would you want to show everyone else ( that /what / or when ) you bought it? Doesn't make sense.
Last edited by D-M on 01 Jun 2007 - 23:11
As far as I know, I can gather the information on who's the car that is parked across the street. Fine, I can see the plate but that doesn't give me his name and email.
Since I'll probably never buy from itunes (the last time I did was like a year ago), I don't give a damn. But I understand those who are concerned about it. Frankly, there's no need for music files to have your name and email embedded on them.
I can publish my phone number all over the place, and I don't think people is gonna come up with my email and password.
First of all your not publishing your password and it's not embedding your pass. I don't know where you come up with that. Other thing, I guarantee that there's at least a million people right now having your name, your phone number, you address, your bank account etc etc. They are not allowed to share (but they do on many ocassions), but they do have it. So, what's the problem again here that you have your name and your email with the file? Whoops, big deal, especially since NOBODY else will see this as you are listening your music on all of YOUR OWN devices.
It raises only concerns if you SHARE your music with other people (which is btw illegal and SHOULD be stopped, artists aren't doing this for free and neither are publishing houses, if you think so you need to grow up), but then again, you are not SHARING your phone bill, for example, with other people now don't you?
Why would you want to show everyone else ( that /what / or when ) you bought it? Doesn't make sense.
But you are not SHOWING it to anyone. It's YOUR music, on your devices, if you are SHOWING it to others that means you are doing something ILLEGAL, like SHARING your music.
Btw, your phone bills, mail that your throw away, credit cards etc etc get stolen every day, so please spare me with that stealing idea. You need to take care of your own crap.
Who said anything about SHARING MUSIC? That is the only thought you can come up with. The stolen IPOD theory works for starters, let alone other methods that people could contain personal information from a music file. When you can think of other possible reasons, except for your sharing only theory, let me know. Till then, I will continue to purchase CD's from the store, and rip them in my own format of choice, put them on any device I choose, and still never share them with anyone else, unless my portable player device was stolen. But then I wouldn't have to worry about someone stripping the personal information off from the media files that I created either.
Last edited by D-M on 02 Jun 2007 - 10:52
The birdie kept flying south.
It makes perfect sense to me to do it this way, its more secure and will result in a very slightly smaller file size too by a few bytes (woot bonus!
oh btw is it a mp3 format
As for the quality of the material recorded on the CD, I'll check it out but could it be that you just don't like the way some CDs are mixed nowadays? (I don't blame you, it's a matter of taste anyway). Still, it wouldn't change the fact that what you can get online is taken from the same master and compressed in a lossy way so anybody who wants the best quality possible has no reason to buy anything that can be downloaded online.
Could be why people are asking how the information will be used.
You have no reason to fear this, unless someone decodes the signatures, so unless this happens Apple are the only ones at the minute who know how to decode this.
Assuming that they use my method, even if your iPod is stolen, you will be safe, just remember to report it as stolen. The only thing you have to fear, is if YOU put the files on Limewire or something.
Assuming that they use my method, even if your iPod is stolen, you will be safe, just remember to report it as stolen. The only thing you have to fear, is if YOU put the files on Limewire or something.
So your saying that should I fear, or not have any fear? Who's to say the person that stole your IPOD, puts your music files on a file sharing network for you? Reporting your IPOD stolen is not gonna change anything.
Last edited by D-M on 02 Jun 2007 - 12:24
There, I've corrected your typo for you.
There, I've corrected your typo for you.
Why is it that everyone always resorts to the word piracy? Just like with the war on terror, it's just another excuse. Besides, we all know just about anyone nowadays is vulnerable to identity theft, etc., but why make it any worse?
What are pirates?
Arrr, to beat the pirate, sometimes you have to be the pirate yourself. Arrrr.
For starters, people who pirate stuff don't usually get caught only maybe once in a while they do. Also pirated material is usually stripped of any kind "Phone Home", Personally Identifiable information, and the need to Activate online, over the phone and the list goes on. People who pirate stuff hardly have anything to worry about. It's just the same senseless bashing everyone does on this forum about piracy and Anti-Windows fanatics, to increase their e-penis and trample over people.
This is more an issue of security, as if anything happens your name and email is out in the open and entirely public. If we had nothing to worry about, why not use our real names while registering in forums, blogs, news sites, what are we all afraid of? Yeah sure you give your name and email out when ordering something online, however you have to be cautious of who you give it to and how reputable they are. Someone can Steal your identity with just your name, by doing a simple web search with your name and obtain Social Security information as well as other vital information. I only want my name out there to people I trust.
Also you people act as if you've never pirated anything in your life. If you say you haven't, you are blatantly outright lying. Everyone has at least pirated something once in their lives that has used a computer. It's Hypocrisy at it's finest if you deny it.
To some this up, it should be someones choice whether they want to distribute something online. Seeing as they paid for their copy/or product and supported the developers/company while fattening the greedy corporate bastards wallets even more it ultimately should be up to the user what he/she wants to do with something they paid for without interference.
Yeah I don't agree with people freeloading or pirating either, but I'm not going to outright deny that I have pirated a bit in the past few years. Most people who pirate, do it because they A. They either can't afford to buy it and it's easier to pirate it. B. They want to try it before they buy it when there is no demo or trial available. And C. because they want to get everything for free without paying for it, which means they were never a potential customer anyways and thus no sales lost/gained.
In some countries downloading copyrighted material is completely legal, so people in those countries have nothing to worry about.
Moral of Story is, the pirates barely ever get caught and it's just another inconvenience for the end user.
Personally this Itunes fiasco is still DRM in a way with more freedom. Essentially DRM in Disguise
*Awaits the onslaught of typical Windows Fanbois and Anti-Piracy/Piracy Hypocrites*
What if someone steals your wallet? They now have access to your funds, personal information about you, including your address, even pictures of you and your family perhaps.
So does that mean that the concept of needing to carry around a wallet, with things like your Drivers License and Credit Card are gross invasions of your privacy - or are they just a normal part of living in a society?
Buying music online needs some safeguards for the people selling this music. They're not just going to trust that the average person won't share the music willy-nilly, so some personally identifying information in the music should deter the average person from sharing the music. You do not have a right to just do whatever you want with the music you buy.
So your saying by embedding certain kinds of personal information into media files are a safeguard? Hmmm. Please explain. File sharing is not a good enough excuse for me either.
What if someone steals your wallet? They now have access to your funds, personal information about you, including your address, even pictures of you and your family perhaps.
So does that mean that the concept of needing to carry around a wallet, with things like your Drivers License and Credit Card are gross invasions of your privacy - or are they just a normal part of living in a society?
Buying music online needs some safeguards for the people selling this music. They're not just going to trust that the average person won't share the music willy-nilly, so some personally identifying information in the music should deter the average person from sharing the music. You do not have a right to just do whatever you want with the music you buy.
Then by that logic, I guess you would have no problem posting your full name or address on a forum/blog either. Please explain further and enlighten me ever so much. I find your reply very one-sided and contradicting itself in more ways than one.
There are certain boundaries that shouldn't be crossed with personally identifiable information, and if someone doesn't do something soon enough it will evolve into an even bigger problem or situation. People are very cautious on who they give there sensitive information to nowadays, whether it would be a name, address, email or any other type of information.
If you don't like you're information secure and only given out to people you want, that is your choice. Don't come a complaining when you get screwed over by some thieving criminal.
Once your name gets into the hands of the wrong people all hell can break loose such as them assuming your identity , getting credit in your name. All the wrong person needs is just your name, and with a simple search they can do any unnecessary evil with it. It's not a matter of the information being out there, it's more what if it gets into the hands of the wrong person.
The file sharing excuse people keep using as a method to belittle people who speak out on this is getting old and filled with hypocrisy as I mentioned in my last post. People who Pirate stuff have no need to worry about any of this as Personally Identifiable Information, and other Anti-Piracy bells and whistles are stripped off of distributed downloads. So you are obviously talking to a brick wall and nobody's listening
[Sarcasm]I'll laugh at you when you try to get credit and are denied because some hacker got credit in your name off of your accidentally leaked Itunes album.[/Sarcasm]
It's very simple - each of us already carries around enough identifying information to really harm us should someone steal it. It's in our wallets, purses, etc.
Now for idiots to argue that tagging some basic encrypted identifying information in a purchased song is somehow a major threat to our privacy, well, it really is a bit rich isn't it. We've got more chance of having our wallet stolen than having a song stolen from our drives, and there's more chance a thief could do harm with the contents of our wallets than with encrypted basic info on a digital track.
So while you may smirk, laugh and act silly trying to prove your "point", it seems you've left basic logic in the dust and now just want to somehow suggest that piracy is fine, and that companies should not try to protect their music. Just let it be free, willy nilly, and hope that consumers don't spread it around like wildfire.
It's very simple - each of us already carries around enough identifying information to really harm us should someone steal it. It's in our wallets, purses, etc.
Now for idiots to argue that tagging some basic encrypted identifying information in a purchased song is somehow a major threat to our privacy, well, it really is a bit rich isn't it. We've got more chance of having our wallet stolen than having a song stolen from our drives, and there's more chance a thief could do harm with the contents of our wallets than with encrypted basic info on a digital track.
So while you may smirk, laugh and act silly trying to prove your "point", it seems you've left basic logic in the dust and now just want to somehow suggest that piracy is fine, and that companies should not try to protect their music. Just let it be free, willy nilly, and hope that consumers don't spread it around like wildfire.
For one, I wasn't saying piracy is OK. I think that they should be able to protect their assets as well. I do think they should take a different approach though instead of publishing personally identifiable information encrypted or whatever in the song you purchase. A simple serial number tied to your account on Itunes would be more sufficient, that means nothing to anyone else but apple that they can use to identify you on their private network/website, should the songs ever make their way to P2P instead of publishing your name and email in with the Song. Just as long as your name doesn't wind up with anyone else you don't want it to by using the method above, I think people will be happy.
Piracy however is one of the most lamest, stereotypical, hypocritical and oldest excuses people could use as to why we don't want this. Piracy has nothing to do with it as I mentioned because people who pirate material don't have to worry about all this garbage, and it is essentially stripped from almost every distributed download via torrents or another method. The pirates have nothing to worry about, however the legit consumer does. And why does piracy keep being brought into this? You all act as if you've never downloaded anything off of the net or through P2P illegally, which I'm pretty sure you have done at least once in your lives and yet you bash others that do it just to cover your asses trying to act all high and mighty.
Yes most or a lot of us are being a little paranoid about this, but how much longer is this crap going to go on and worsens, before someone stands up and says enough? Yes a thief can steal you're wallet, but only stupid people would leave their wallets out in the open where they can be snatched freely, or walk around a crowded place without securing their hands over their wallets in their pocket, and most thieves wouldn't so stupid as to rob you in a crowded place in broad daylight unless you were not securing you valuable and vital assets (Pickpocketing) But most to a lot of thieves wouldn't be stupid enough to result to forceful violence to rob you in a crowded place in broad daylight.
Yes common **** will happen such as theft, but it is up to the person to stand up and try to secure their information as much as they can. What are we supposed to do, just sit there and let apple do what they want? If someone doesn't say or do anything to prevent it, that would be about equal to leaving your wallet out in the open or your information insecure.
And no, you're computer being hacked is not the only way the songs with your name embedded on them can end up in the wrong hands, and neither is P2P. There are many other ways this can wind up with the wrong person. It is up to people to speak up when they think enough is enough instead of waiting until the situation worsens and nothing can be done about it. Piracy is Not the Reason we are upset. It's partly because they said DRM Free, and I still consider embedding your name and email in the song a form of less restricted DRM, but DRM nonetheless which wasn't what we were promised. We want our music as fresh as if you ripped it off of the CD yourself without any embedded junk added in
If I buy a cd, rip it and burn a copy, then give it to a friend to listen to = piracy.
If I buy a cd, and lend it to a friend = piracy ?
Either way the friend gets to listen without paying...
piratebuy from "other" stores. something where just plugging a stolen ipod into your computer can give you information that can be sold for money (spam) or researched for potential robberies/muggings/kidnappings etc (remember, ipods are most commonly owned by kids) is not a good idea.You can't possibly expect a ported app to be as good as it is on its native OS, and vice versa, but iTunes on Windows > WMP on OSX ANY day, and the same goes if you look at it the other way.
I hated quicktime on windows, but on osx I love it and hate wmv.
Its not the software, its the OS.
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